Suspect SV BH Suspect 3: The Infection (Mortal Spin)

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Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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Hi! The BH council has decided to suspect Mortal Spin.
/////Tea GuzzleraugustakiraTTTechChessking345
Mortal SpinSuspectSuspectSuspectDo Not Suspect

Mortal Spin has been a pretty hot topic since the transition to Full Dex. If you aren't aware, Mortal Spin poisons the target and removes entry hazards if it successfully connects. This has a few applications - most notably, it's a very easy and effective way of controlling entry hazards (usually set by Stone Axe) and making progress via the poison (which severely impacts the longevity of almost all defensive Pokemon). Mortal Spin can realistically go on just about anything, with the most notable users being RegenVest users, Miraidon, and Calm Mind Arceus formes.

Part of the issue that Mortal Spin presents is that it makes progress making far too easy. Without the use of Covert Cloak, which has become almost unanimously the most common item on defensive Pokemon as counterplay, Mortal Spin's poison allows practically any Pokemon to make substantial progress with it, bolstered by the middling viability of most Steel- and Poison-types. Covert Cloak's sheer dominance (almost solely due to Mortal Spin; no other move with a secondary effect is anywhere near as impactful in warranting Cloak) can be argued to be an unhealthy aspect, both due to the dominance over the item slot and that the substantial opportunity cost for Leftovers and Heavy-Duty Boots has a side effect of buffing already-dangerous offensive nukes like Kartana. Cloak being the de-facto best option against Mortal is also up for debate; the majority of Mortal Spin users carry options specifically to mess with most Covert Cloak or Magic Guard users trying to switch into them, with Knock Off and strong offensive options like Torch Song Miraidon being near unanimous on these types of sets. In addition, Mortal Spin disproportionately benefitting Regenerator users can also be seen as a negative for the tier, as it can lead to more drawn-out games where not a ton happens until the first KO is made.

However, Mortal Spin isn't without counterplay in the traditional sense. Covert Cloak, despite its shortcomings, shuts off the poison and reduces Mortal Spin to a mere entry hazard removal tool. Steel-types, while flawed, can block both the poison and the removal; even if the Steel-type isn't actually switching in, its mere presence arguably makes spamming the move to make progress a weaker option. It's also far and away the best source of entry hazard removal, as the other options are notably flawed (Tidy Up and -ate Rapid Spin lack many good users, regular Rapid Spin is reasonably easy to block, and Defog is Defog), helping keep moves like Stone Axe under control.

Ultimately, it's the surrounding discussion being major on both sides that has warranted this suspect.

During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! server, and the account must be created on or after 24 September 2023.
  • Accounts must have the prefix "PSN", and this being at the beginning of the alt name is mandatory. "PSN STATUS" would be allowed, "TOXIC PSN" would not.
  • To qualify for voting, players must reach 82% GXE with 30 games played, and the GXE requirement decreases by 0.2% for each additional played, down to a minimum of 78% GXE at 50 games played. See below for a complete table.
  • 1695559828717.png
  • Mortal Spin will be allowed on ladder during this suspect test.
  • The suspect will go on for 2 weeks and will end on 8 October 2023 at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership over your suspect account.
  • Feel free to post in this thread about your thoughts on Mortal Spin when posting suspect requirements.
  • A ban vote of 60% or more is required to ban Mortal Spin from BH.
Tagging Kris to set up the suspect on PS.

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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we love losing thrice to full paras and thrice to queueing the same geezer with a broken matchup

made my stance pretty clear on main thread but going to be voting ban. this move has an awful effect on teambuilding (centralization of cloak and makes accounting for demons like kart harder since can afford boots and lefties less) and a similarly poor influence on the game itself, where the role compression is stupid and slower teams where the demon in the back doesn't win instantly find themselves spamming mortal regenvest pivoting to make progress. axe gets annoying with it gone but tidy up is viable enough on things like arc-ground and nowhere is it written that it can't go afterwards.

had a poor money tour run with some untimely crits / misses so don't mind dropping these here:

:mewtwo-mega-x::eternatus::chansey::arceus::steelix-mega::miraidon: - steel beam mmx is a very useful tool to snipe annoying stuff like fc yvel and scales fairyceus in the one slot, it's not strong enough to 2hko either but its a lot more than the alternative (brutalizing one but losing to the other) and rocks / constant chip that the other mons provide helps put them in range. etern tspikes are annoying for teams that lack mlix / psnceus (both of which you aren't massively concerned with anyway). rest of the team is pretty standard. opposing moldy etern with a psn move gets a bit dicey and you sort of just have to outposition that.

:mewtwo-mega-x::arceus-poison::greninja-ash::kyogre-primal::chansey::pheromosa: - older team but still works very well, especially with how common fc yveltal is. mmx has no long-term answers and aside from stuff like teleport the pivoting from pogre + phero is usually enough to get it in enough times to win. gren could feasibly go since nobody's using fur coat waters, but it makes yveltal much less hassle to deal with (you probably put a regenvest in that slot if you do). preserve imp's hp for mg mmx if they have one.

got reqs, not quite sure what I'll be voting. Rip to some awful MU's (and queuing tea who knew my team) preventing the 30 game winstreak.

:blacephalon: :swampert-mega: :chansey: :kyurem-white: :ho-oh: :arceus-poison:

Pretty decent team I've been using. Built around baiting in Kyogre or other inconvenient mons for Blacephalon and using Kyurem's Final Gambit to get them out of the way. Arceus is a backup to deal with fatter teams by stacking chip damage. I used spikes over haze on Ho-oh for part of it but Haze is needed to deal with ladder bullshit like SNR NDW.


True Coffee Maniac
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OM Leader

Probably one of my best runs yet, sadly the game I lost was entirely my fault, made multiple misplays. I did get lucky though, lots of bad BH players were sacrificed to feed me fat.

Dunno what I will vote, consider me pandora's box or shrodinger's cat in a box, don't know if I a Ban or Do Not Ban till you open it.

Thanks to Tea Guzzler for the team, I modified so that it felt more in line with my style of gameplay. I like Liquid Ooze, even though the game I lost was me sapping myself on imposter switchin (should probably put recover on it instead).

Modified Tea Team HERE!

Derpa Derpa Derpa Ignore Me Derp!
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Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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you should love yourself... NOW!
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Not the neatest run but better than running through a million more suspect accounts. After a few short suspect runs and a decent start on this one i decided to just push through this until the end. Bad mistake as I ended up stumbling and going on a tough losing streak with some poor luck and running into other suspect accounts frequently. Luck overall wasn't that bad as I also had a few games won because of some good luck. Used various teams but for the end I decided to just stick to my old Kyurem-Black team.

Not sure what I'll vote and honestly I'd rather see some action against Lumina/MMX and not entirely sure if I could blame Mortal Spin for the current state of the meta, which I don't think is even that bad honestly. I'm open to either side still and will just continue to see anymore arguments from either side until I make up my mind.


Vegan funktioniert ned
is a Top Tiering Contributor

not sure what I am going to vote.
I think the meta is really revolving around knocking Covert Cloaks and use mortal spin + Salt Cure to make progress.
Even tho mortal spin can be easily blocked by steel types such as :Registeel: and :Steelix-Mega: it really is a strong move to make progress yourself but also preventing progress for the opponent by removing hazards.
I can definetely see Mortal spin being banned but I will look more into some thoughts here in the suspect thread :)
I KNOW I'm not able to qualify (I tried but end up making dumb self-ending mistakes way too often), but I think I have something useful to prove the mortal spin isn't healthy: A tour matchup where mortal spin defeated me.

First, thanks MTB for saving the match, because the loser cannot save via surrender. Also thanks for your patience with phone online.
Back to topic, As you can see, I wasn't playing great, I should have killed Celesteela with close Combat in turn 35, but you can also see how it roughly plays on regular mid-level, how you basically don't allow outs.
"Oh, but steel and poisons" While yes, steel types are immune to poison, they're also weak to salt cure, meaning they're not reliable answers. Also, there's only 2 good Poison types in Eternatus and Arceus-Poison, the latter doesn't allow you to use the otherwise better Arceus-Ghost or Fairy, and the former is quite vulnerable to imposter as a fast Dragon. Therefore the best answer is Magic guard, because every team has knock off and because poison heal no longer exists.

The bad news is that, while Magic Guard is without a doubt a top 10 hability in this format, is not a top 4 (Those would be Imposter, Fur Coat, Regenerator and Ice Scales), so not every team can fit it, considering you need a fur coat + ice scales defensive core and usually regenerator to pivot savely, as well as an imposter Pink Blob (Wether Chansey or Spooky plate Blissey) to check setup sweepers.
As great as MMX and as underrated as Ho-Oh are, they're not foolproof tools against mortal spin, and using Magic Guard Might not be optimal on Mewtwo if it's your main wallbreaker because Fur Coat. It was even worse when Protean was legal, not to mention Mewtwo would never want to switch into Ho-Oh's mortal spin for obvious reasons.

Finally, it removes hazards, and as I stated before, steel types don't want to switch into a Salt Cure, and considering Hazards are the main way you can punish Stall's switch tendency, and the move removes that because it can't be spinblocked by someone who can switch into salt cure, it puts you in an obnoxious catch 22 situation because the best steel type does not use covert cloak and the second best one cannot switch into almost anything and also doesn't use covert cloak.
Is just an unhealthy move in the tier because is just overcentralizing, specially without poison heal who love to be poisoned, hability which might be able to come back if we deny hability spam, but I doubt it'll happen. There's counterplay, but is too limited to be good for the tier.
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took me so damn long to get reqs because
1. irl stuff
2. i suck
3. i have the worst luck known to mankind (no game where i go without 2 80% misses, full paras and stuff)
4. i suck

thank you akira for the team

anyways uh i’m pretty torn on mortal but leaning towards ban
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